22 thoughts on “Can Sun Wukong Copy the Strength and Magic of an Opponent?

  1. On a metaphysical level, one can make the claim as a materialist that Sun Wukong in theory would be able to copy powers and abilities through his 72 transformations. It depends on how you want to interpret how the 72 transformations work. For example, it’s heavily implied when he transforms into objects and animals, he retains the physical properties of said objects and animals. Such as turning into a bird to fly, he must have actual bird physiology such as hollow bones and functional feathers in order to fly. It’s unclear how detailed and accurate a transformation is. For example if he shapeshifts into a copy of a demon, is he molecularly identical to the demon? And thus has the demon’s exact brain chemistry? This would theoretically give him access to all of the demon’s memories, and thus access to knowledge. Magic seems to be mostly knowledge based and gained through cultivation. If the 72 transformations can be used to perfectly copy the form of another being, it’s not unreasonable for Wukong to copy their abilities. Like can Wukong simply shapeshift into a lump of kryptonite to defeat superman? Does the 72 transformations retain the properties of real kryptonite?

    1. The challenge isn’t about metaphysics, though. Theorizing how Monkey’s powers might work is not the same as citing specific examples from the novel where the claimed ability to copy the strength and powers of a foe actually happen.

      1. This isn’t a debate about theorizing tho. Like if I wrote a novel about someone who is good at soccer. It’s not a theory to say that he could seriously hurt someone by kicking them. Like just because there are no citations of him kicking and hurting someone in my novel, it’s not an unrealistic conclusion that a soccer player has a strong kick. If we have direct instances of how Sun Wukong’s powers working in one way, we can take it to logical conclusions based on the existing logic of the novel. One can claim author intent would negate this, but that’s impossible to prove either way.

    2. As someone writing a story with the meta-principles you are implying, I understand where you are coming from. However, from story context and framing, there are a number of reasons why this should not work in Journey to the West.

      Firstly, since Sūn Wùkōng lacks the Buddha Mind and thus has to go on the Journey, he does not have the mindset to perfectly understand others. To give him the ability to become a perfect facsimile of his enemies would counter the overlaying theme of the story. He has to regain his empathy and discard his overwhelming sense of self. To take on all of the aspects, skills and thoughts included, of those he shifts into would mean he already discards his self.

      From a story angle, he cannot be willing to go that far because it would mean supplanting his sense of identity. Maintaining that identity while pretending to change, (both physically and mentally) is a major part of the Trickster archetype.

      Secondly, copying powers is extremely dangerous. Proficiency is key. It is more of a detriment to take a power when one will not have the skill to use it. That is one of the reasons that Tricksters and Shifters usually don’t bother… and those that do tend to cause more damage than they mean to. Mainly to themselves.

      Since he already has a very wide array of skills to work with, it would be safer to use a similar skill of his own than borrowing another’s.

      Thirdly, there is no need to go all the way. No matter who Sūn Wùkōng goes against, his main skillset is his creativity, not necessarily his physical strength, and his extremely strong confidence. There is no need to put in that much effort to be somebody else when one can be themselves.

      Being yourself while playing a part is much easier than becoming another person.

      His disguises will be found out at some point because he cannot maintain another person’s identity as well as his own. He will, inevitably, show his tail.

      As to the idea of fighting Kratos, I really doubt Wùkōng would even entertain the notion to begin with. It would take a great deal of contrivances to make a situation where the two would fight. For one, if Kratos were to attack the Celestial Realm, Wùkōng would more than likely join him than fight him. No matter what stage of life with either combatant. Having Kratos fight Èrláng Shen is more likely than Sūn Wùkōng, but that is also a stretch since Èrláng is not exactly happy with the Court either.

      I am speaking from a storyteller perspective. It is not worth having a fight, in my opinion, if it is just a brainless brawl for the sake of fighting. The hardest part of plotting these kinds of things is finding a reason for characters to fight.

      Even though a lot of media portray Sūn Wùkōng as impulsive, he is not surly. If people call him names, it does not bother him, and if they hit him, he does not get angry. He is just polite to them and that is that.

      One has to know what line to cross in order to instigate a believable battle. Such as attacking Huāguǒ Mountain or attacking family.

      Yet when it comes down to it, the one who wins is the one the writer wants to win. I used to write battles like that, but it is extremely difficult to keep up a fighting mindset.

      Especially since the more powerful the character, the less they actually have the need to fight.

      Mowing down nameless raiders, easy! Just have the focus character plow through them in interesting ways.

      Two characters of near or equal skills (or temperament)… there is a reason that Sūn Wùkōng and Èrláng’s fight was cut off by Lǎozǐ and that diamond snare of his. Without divine intervention, that would have gone on and on because it is difficult to decide who should win fairly! (Trust me. It is difficult.)

  2. I think it’s one of his theoretical abilities. In the first chapters (where I consider it to be the “true” Wukong, after his sealing he is terribly nerfed) we don’t know his limits, the powers he displays are only those he wants to display to face his enemies. For example, in chapter 5, Wukong simultaneously faces Nezha, Li and the 4 Heavenly Kings and waits for the sky to darken to summon a horde of clones that easily defeat his enemies. During all the time of their confrontation, it’s as if he was playing with them, and only decides to end it when he decides it’s late. Many other examples show that Wukong has unsuspected resources, and the name of his staff alone sums up his skills: he can do whatever he wants with it, according to his pleasure. Many people who know Wukong without knowing him think that he can clone his enemies because after all it would be logical. He can transform into whatever he wants and create clones identical to himself: what could be more normal than imagining that he can transform his clones into his enemies. The real question, I think, is rather “To what extent do transformations confer the abilities of the things into which one is transformed?” Wukong regularly transforms into insects, and he obtains their abilities (flying, stinging) and when he transforms into a specific person, we do not know if he obtains these abilities because in general he uses this transformation to infiltrate or deceive, not to fight as far as I remember. And in general he transforms into a minion, so fighting with the minion’s skills would not give him an advantage. Another approach would be to imagine that Wukong must know and understand the thing into which he transforms, as he knows insects he can have their skills, but since he does not know in detail his enemies, the functioning of their powers or their organs, he cannot copy them.

      1. To clarify in another comment I made, how do you differentiate between a theory and an interpretation of a cited event? Like in dragon ball, early on there is a character who blows up the moon. Which the author most likely intended as a gag narrative. But taken at face value, are we supposed to interpret it as the character literally having that much power? Or that he has a technique that specifically is able to blow up moons? None of this is clarified technically so how do you extend that feat into dictating the character’s actual capabilities? I think often times is a failure of authors writing interesting abilities but not using them to their fullest extent. Like there’s no logical reason Jedi can’t just throw their enemies 50 ft into the air and kill them with gravity all the time. We simply don’t see that happen since it’s a less interesting story. Just like how it would be less interesting if Sun Wukong just transformed into a stronger version of every opponent he faced. Logically given examples of how we see his powers work, he should be able to replicate the base properties of things he transforms into. So it’s worth entertaining the idea

  3. The 72 Transformations (七十二般变化) allow the user to gain the abilities of the forms they assume. For example, while sunwukong cannot naturally breathe underwater, by transforming into aquatic creatures like fish, he acquires their ability to respire in water.

    1. I am aware of that, but it’s not the same as, say, copying the form of superman and gaining his superstrength, heat vision, and ability to fly. The challenge is to cite examples of Monkey gaining the powers of his opponents.

      1. Does using a hair to transform into a Sleep Bug(瞌睡虫) count? Because the Sleep Bug(瞌睡虫) created from his hair possesses the original Sleep Bug’s ability—it can make mortals and immortals fall asleep.

  4. The phrase “身子变不过来” should not be translated as “not his body could be transformed”, because SunWukong’s transformations are limited only by his knowledge and what he has seen. In this particular instance, he didn’t transform his body because he had never seen what the bodies of humans or demons looked like beneath their clothing—so he only changed his face. In other chapters, he uses his transformation abilities to alter specific parts of his body independently. Therefore, his Seventy-Two Transformations are constrained only by his imagination and knowledge. Since he had never seen the inner body of a human or a demon, he simply didn’t change those parts.

      1. The three demons flipped the traveler over, and the four horses gathered their hooves to pin him down. When they lifted his clothes to check, it was indeed the Horse Keeper of Heaven.

        You see, the Monkey King had seventy-two transformations. If he transformed into birds, beasts, plants, objects, or insects, his whole body would change completely.

        But when he transformed into a person, only his head and face would change — the rest of his body wouldn’t fully follow.

        Sure enough, he had yellow fur all over, two red buttocks, and a long tail.

      2. I am a Chinese scholar and Taiji choreographer. “Shen zi bian” means “the body’s seed changes.” “Bu guo lai” means “without fault for having an orgasm.” In other words, you can’t change the fact that the body becomes aroused and can release an orgasm at the sight and thought of the opposite sex. It is normal for the body to respond like that because that’s how we are built and cannot change, though the heart can change.

  5. If you have time, you can take a look at The 《五部六册》. This work predates Journey to the West by several decades. Journey to the West appears to have borrowed some elements from 《五部六册》, and it seems that the inspiration for Sunwukong’s eventual attainment of Buddhahood may have originated from 《五部六册》.

  6. What about the sleep inducing bugs. Didn’t he win them from a drinking game? If he was able to create them with his hair, and maintain their magic power, its either that he can copy both form and abilities or he can create them if he can imagine them.

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